YouTube, AI, and The New Rules of Video Buying with Google’s own Caroline Oates

TAYLOR:  We can all agree that Netflix kind of changed the way that we consume video, especially in our living rooms. But as of just recently, YouTube’s taken kind of the top spot in terms of consumption. So today, I’m sitting down with Caroline Oates from Google, who runs the ad business across Australia and New Zealand. 

So Caroline Oates, welcome to That F*cking Marketing Podcast.  

CAROLINE: Thank you. Delighted to be here.  

TAYLOR: Um, so before we get started, I wanna chat about sort of your background. So you’ve been on both the media owner side and now the platform side. What’s the one thing that brands still get wrong with video buying today? 

CAROLINE: Ooh, it’s interesting. I mean, I think when I came from publisher side to, to, from brand side over to, um, over to Google, it was a long time ago. Like video was… It was 14 years ago. Video was very, very different. But I think the thing that I still observe now and get wrong, it’s probably two things. One is treating video like they did five, 10 years ago, like as if it is just a broadcast medium- Mm 

and you can lift and shift, and it will do the same job, and consumers are engaging in the same way. And the second one I think is not [00:01:00] thinking about the role that video now plays in our life. Like I think I saw something that 80% of time online is spent with video. Mm. Like video is our worlds, which mean that video is where you come for, I don’t know, you come for entertainment, you come to shop, you come to learn. 

When have you learned something new and not gone to YouTube, for example? Right. So that I think fundamentally changes what the role of video is, and I think that thinking that video is just there for the mass awareness that maybe it once was, I think is, is missing a trick.  

TAYLOR: If you keep listening to the end of this episode, what you’re gonna learn is how to get started on YouTube, the metrics you should actually be paying attention to, and how to stop wasting your money on advertising on video screens. 

Quick rebuttal to my intro. Tell me what you just said.  

CAROLINE: I found like your initial premise- Mm … that Netflix is what’s changed how we, how viewing, how modern viewing happens, and how we view in the living room, I mean I think YouTube’s what changed that. Yeah. I think that is the bigger, the bigger shift in terms of how people engage and what they engage with in the living room too. 

So I think Netflix massive, absolutely- Mm … but I think there are a number of factors [00:02:00] that have changed how we view in the living room, and I think to assume it started with Netflix, I think is missing the role that YouTube’s played in that transformation.  

TAYLOR: Yeah. No, I, I do agree with you, but I think where I’m coming from the Netflix comment is we used to go… 

And I’ve just finished reading a book, I just said that to you, right, called No Rules Rules, which is a guy who, he’s the CEO of Netflix at the time. The behavior change between going to a video store and getting one video per week, being with Netflix, they made it so much more accessible to actually watch video on demand whenever you wanted to. 

So I think that has kinda changed the behavior in terms of how people are engaging with video now. But in terms of the content, there’s so much more on YouTube and what people are utilizing it for now as well.  

CAROLINE: Yeah, I think there’s something around the, the different moments that people come to. Mm. I think the bit that, I mean I’ve been doing this role for looking after the YouTube business since 2017, and when I came in, like CTV was on the horizon- Mm 

but it was not the biggest thing. Like it was still around how do we get, um, brands to catch up with the role that [00:03:00] consumers are playing with video on, on mobile. Yeah. Um, and it changes so, it changed so quickly. Like it changed so quickly in terms of the point where YouTube became over 50% of our watch time is on CTV. 

Yes. And I think that- That was very … That was actually very consumer led. Mm. Like, you had the platform, you had the app on CTV, but the amount that consumers showed that it wasn’t just about a one-to-one viewing on a mobile, it was actually about a shared experience. Mm. I think it, I think you have a number of forces- Yeah 

that kind of came to the fore at similar times. Yeah. I think that one is … I’ve gotta read that book. I haven’t read that. Yeah, yeah. I’ll listen to, I’ll probably listen to it. But, um, but I think absolutely, but I think there isn’t a single, a single force- Yeah … to change that.  

TAYLOR: Yeah. I also remember back in my last agency where we changed the way it was, you know, TV over this side of the plan and then digital video over this side, and then we became screens. 

Yeah. We’re looking at a screen strategy, right? And that was, like, the big buzzword for whatever year that was, 2019, and it kind of changed the way the media plans rolled out from there, from after then.  

CAROLINE: Yeah. I [00:04:00] think it’s really interesting, though, that a lot of people talk around we moved to screens planning. 

TAYLOR: Mm.  

CAROLINE: But still the creative idea would start with the TVC.  

TAYLOR: Yes.  

CAROLINE: Start with a 30-second or a 15. So I think that there’s been something really interesting about- I don’t know, to what extent did we talk the talk before we actually walked it? Mm. Like, and I s- like, even now, I think you’ve got big creative ideas that start with a 30 second. 

Yeah. And the only reason you start with that is because it’s the legacy of how you’ve approached it-  

TAYLOR: Mm …  

CAROLINE: not because it’s how consumers engage, or how it’s the best way that your i- your creative idea’s gonna come to life. Yeah. Like, I, I think it’s just really interesting, even the talk of so many brands will be like, “Yeah, we’re doing screens planning.” 

TAYLOR: Yeah .  

CAROLINE: And you dig into it, and you actually still have silo buying and silo- What are you really doing? Yeah … thinking across. 100%. And I think it differs, and that’s natural when you’re having the sort of change that we’ve gone through- Mm … over the last decade. Um, but I think for me is that, yeah, we, we’ve got, we’re doing screens planning. 

TAYLOR: Yeah.  

CAROLINE: What does that actually mean, and is that reflecting how consumers are currently behaving, and- Yeah … what that needs to mean to set your business up for [00:05:00] growth going forward?  

TAYLOR: So before we talk about how brands are using video in 2026, I wanna touch on, you know, a subject that always comes up which, which is measurement around video, right? 

And now I know that you’re on the IAB board for pushing the measurement issues. Is there anything you can let us know what you’re up to at the moment in terms of the measurement for video?  

CAROLINE: Ooh, I mean, there’s a number of layers, I think, to that question. Mm. I think measurement, first of all, is this massive bucket of which a thousand things can come into. 

From an IAB perspective, they’ve just done a future of measurement consultation across the industry- Mm-hmm … and one of the things that has come up there is the need for more consistency across, um, across the actual data layer that you’d be ingesting. Because if you’ve got, um, different standards across different, I guess, taxonomies in terms of how you measure, how you think about those campaigns, all of those going in, but you can’t get a consistent platform, and you- Mm 

you know, rubbish into a model, rubbish out. So I think they’re focused very much on how do you have those standards and that consistency across, which means that the magic [00:06:00] of, you know, some of the magic of AI that’s kind of, means that we can measure more effectively can actually be effective, ’cause you’ve got that robust kind of foundation that goes in. 

At the same time, I work with the Video Futures Collective- Mm-hmm … and they’re looking on less, uh, they’re looking more on how do you drive more of that cross media measurement. Um, they are sponsoring, I mean, Audience Project, I think, have recently announced that they’re coming into the market, which will let advertisers get a view of the, um, of their campaigns across different CTV, uh, different CTV publishers- Yeah 

at the moment. It, uh, it’s- I think still in negotiations and still thinking through exactly who’s, who’s in. Um-  

TAYLOR: I mean, we hope all of them join eventually, but yeah.  

CAROLINE: I mean, hopefully it’s not only VFC, but- Mm-hmm … you know, beyond VFC I think is definitely the hope there because this is about solving for an industry challenge. 

Um, but I think those are the things at an industry level. I think when you ask about measurement, I think it’s for brands, specific brands and companies- Mm … to work out what is relevant for them. Yep. Because [00:07:00] depending on what you… To that point we talked about before around video can be everything. Yes. 

You know, video is through the fun- it is not just this upper funnel awareness play anymore. How you are using video is gonna massively impact how you then need to, how you then need to measure.  

TAYLOR: Mm.  

CAROLINE: Um, we talk about modern measurement having like a trifecta, so your, particularly your biggest brands, but you think about media mix modeling and you think about that setting the benchmark and the kind of longer term view that you’re not gonna be doing all the time, but it helps guide and understand what is really working and what is driving the outcomes for your business. 

But you also then have attribution that lets you within a channel optimize day in, day out. But really, and I think really importantly, a lot of the conversations we’re having with clients is on incrementality- Mm … and how do you establish that, um, that causal analysis that lets you cut through the fact that- Consumer journeys go all over the place these days. 

Yeah. So attribution, particularly anyone who’s still using last click attribution, just- … that does not reflect the way- Yeah … consumers are engaging, and the [00:08:00] way that your marketing is working. Um, so I think it’s really interesting, the work and the focus on the, the incrementality. Mm. The incrementality piece and the role that will play going forwards. 

But I would say for any brand who is thinking about their measurement of video, I think it’s get really clear on what are you using this for. Yeah. What is the role of this within your- within either a specific campaign or your business more broadly, and therefore what’s the right measurement framework for you? 

TAYLOR: Yeah. I ag- I agree. I think we can’t just be measuring it against other channels in the funnel that, you know, it’s not comparison. You know? And we need to make sure we’re actually measuring it for a specific purpose.  

CAROLINE: It’s so hard- Yeah … to get apples to apples straight off, particularly when you look at the way different platforms will define different things. 

So it’s hard to get that apples to apples view without really digging in, but I also think that’s where you end up in a world where I know I’ve had some conversations with clients who are running campaigns on YouTube on the performance side, and they’re driving high intent audiences- Mm … but they might be like, “I’m not getting as many clicks I’m getting on search.” 

I’m like, “No, you’re not.” Of course, yeah. But that, that’s not the job that it’s there to do. No. [00:09:00] And I think that the more you’re upfront about what you’re trying to do and the understanding of the role it plays within your, your broader mix- Mm … and within your consumer’s journey, I think that’s where measurement can like really, I guess, drive the… 

The measurement lets you make the choices on how you most effectively use your media dollars.  

TAYLOR: Yeah. I love that. I’ll come back to ROI in a second ’cause it’s really important, especially for our audience, but I guess the reason I wanted to get you on today, which is really awesome, is OzTAM, our rating system, just said that more Aussies are now watching YouTube than Netflix. 

That surprised me when I first saw that, but I believe it now. Um, what do the numbers actually look like that you’re seeing?  

CAROLINE: So I don’t know about the OzTAM numbers specifically. We’re not a subscriber to OzTAM. Um, I know from the numbers we see, and it’s reflected in Ipsos, who, um- Mm … who we have an integration with. 

For YouTube, we, we know from, uh, we know from Ipsos that we’ve got over 20 million Aussies- Mm … watching YouTube every month. So massive- [00:10:00] Mm … massive scale across Aussies. I sometimes get asked, like, “Who’s your typical audience?” Like, that is every- everyone. Broad, yeah. The diversity there is, and that’s what’s so, I think, rich and exciting about it for brands, whether you’re trying to go mass reach or you’re trying to get a particular target, um, target consumer segment. 

Mm. And then even on CTV, like you mentioned, the comparison to Netflix, we’ve got over 13 million people watching on connected TV- Mm … every month, which is enormous. Mm. Like, just enormous.  

TAYLOR: And how long does a typical Aussie spend watching YouTube per week?  

CAROLINE: Oh, I don’t know the per week one. Um, but I think it’s really interesting, again, when you look at the different ways Aussies do engage with YouTube. 

Yeah. It’s short-form, it is long-form. We see on your long-form content, the content is typically, like, 21 minutes or longer- Mm … was one of the stats I saw more recently, when you’re engaging on a, sorry, on, on CTV. Yeah. Short-form, obviously, it’s shorter scrolling, scrolling moments, but it’s, yeah, it’s significant. 

TAYLOR: And then how many ads typically would someone watching be served during their time on- online? [00:11:00]  

CAROLINE: So it varies quite a bit, and this is something that we continually play with in the back e- back end. Mm. We are very much a flywheel of we are- Yeah … yes, we want to deliver results for our advertisers- But we also have creators who we want to be delivering results for, as well as our audience. 

So it’s always about getting the balance between those. And with things like ad load, you’ve got the trade-off- Yeah … amongst those. We do do a lot of experiments where we’ve got different ad formats, and understanding what different ad formats work well on different screens- Mm … for example, in different contexts, and even with different audience types. 

So if you’ve got a particularly skippy, like, you’re a particularly skippy consumer, like you’re always gonna hit- Mm … skip on your ads, then we’ll think about how do we serve different a- Like, actually then, uh, maybe you get a non-skip ad. Yeah. Maybe you’ll get… So, so there’s no single, there’s no single answer to that. 

Yeah. It does depend. Um, and we are continually monitoring that trade-off, because what we don’t want is that being something that makes people bounce- Yes … and leave the platform. So looking at that and understanding for specific [00:12:00] individuals, for the context, for the session length they’re on, the type of con- the type of content they’re engaging with, short-form, long-form, all of those signals let us make that call on how do we-  

TAYLOR: Yeah 

CAROLINE: how do we serve ads.  

TAYLOR: And I guess the, the audience that started watching on their phone back when, you know, mobile was, it was the year of mobile for about five years, or- It’s more than  

CAROLINE: five  

TAYLOR: years … yeah. It’s  

CAROLINE: like, uh, 15 years  

TAYLOR: of the year of mobile. I feel like we’ve been talking about it forever. Um, and but now we’re back to big screens and living room, and that’s kind of the height at the moment. 

Is it the same audience that were started watching on their phone that now switch to TV, or is it a completely new audience that’s kind of taken up the TV viewing of  

CAROLINE: YouTube? N- there wasn’t a completely new audience to do that. Yeah, okay. Like, I think YouTube in terms of use on mobile is massively high still. 

Mm. So I don’t think it’s an entirely incremental audience. We did see certain segments move sooner, as you’d expect. Like, your younger audiences- Mm … were one of the earlier ones to move onto CTV. But now we do see that growth across all, across all audience segments, as reflected in those numbers of, like, to get 30 million aussies on a month- Yeah 

like, you’re getting a very broad cross-section- [00:13:00] Yeah … of audience. Um, yeah.  

TAYLOR: And from my research, so free to air and BVOD still holds, like, 60% of the share here. Do you feel that more people are gonna move away from those traditional, I guess, BVOD, free to air networks to more lean in environments like YouTube? 

CAROLINE: So we’re not part of AUSTAM. Mm. Um, I think the AUSTAM only measures in-home for you- Mm. I think there are, there is issues with the way that we measure- Yeah … in this market. There is no single, single source. Yeah. Um-  

TAYLOR: Makes it all fun, doesn’t  

CAROLINE: it? In that, um, it makes it really fun. Makes it really fun for everyone. 

I don’t think we’ve got the same perspective on where those numbers- Yeah … sit as other people, which is, like, different methodologies- Yeah … different ways of looking at things.  

TAYLOR: I mean, like, ’cause sitting here with, you know, any of the Freewheeler, except Freewheeler networks, TVs, that says different things, so yeah. 

CAROLINE: I mean,  

TAYLOR: 100%,  

CAROLINE: 100%. And I think that’s part of the challenge of there not being a single- Mm … source of measurement as an example. Um, I do think that when we look at the growth and scale of YouTube, I think there is no other platform that connects. And part of the reason for that is because it does connect across [00:14:00] short-form as well as long-form. 

It is an entertainment platform, but it is also where you come to learn. It’s where you come to shop. It’s where you come to discover, and I think that uniquely places it and drives that engagement and that connection in a way that, you know, other platforms just can’t. Mm. Like, it’s, it… I think it’s fundamentally different in its DNA, and it’s fundamentally different in the proposition it brings to- Mm 

consumers because of that. So I don’t think… I also don’t think it’s a YouTube versus a evil plat- Yeah … you know? If I look at some of the content I’ve been watching on YouTube in the last week, I’m watching it with my, with my kids. We’re sitting down. We’re, every Friday night we’re watching, um, Britain’s Got Talent. 

TAYLOR: Yeah. Okay.  

CAROLINE: Broadcast content from another market- Yeah … which we’re accessing through YouTube. And so similarly, I think that YouTube is an access point- Mm-hmm … for content, and that content can span what would’ve been your traditional broadcast content, but it is also your endemic creators who are driving a different scale of- Yeah 

connection and trust with audiences.  

TAYLOR: Yeah. And I wanna loop back to the ROI thing, and we had a quick chat about this before we came on, [00:15:00] around, you know, what I see from my own clients. Uh, YouTube was ranked number one channel for ROI with analytic partners. Can you talk to us what that actually means? 

CAROLINE: When … So analytic partners do a bunch of meta-analysis across all of their customers. They’ve got a huge repository of results, and they look from that and look at comparing channels, comparing across channels, what’s the ROI? And analytic partners, uh, do a great job of- Mm … working through both the long-term ROI and short-term ROI to get that overall, overall number. 

I think one of the things that shows up in their data repeatedly is, I guess, reflecting the historical or legacy way we thought about media channels. Most media channels, while they can do a bit of both brand building and shorter term performance- Mm … most of them massively gravitate to one or the other. 

You know, when you think about the legacy role of broadcast media, it was around brand building. Yeah. There, yes, there’d be some short-term piece in it, but the predominant thing, when you think about search, you predominantly think about short-term- Mm … performance media. What’s really interesting when you look at YouTube in their [00:16:00] data is that it plays a really interesting role across both. 

Um, so I think that is what makes it uniquely placed to drive ROI- Mm … um, drive ROI, whether it is across the long or the short. Um, and helps, yeah.  

TAYLOR: Yeah. Imagining you’re a skeptical CMO or a marketing manager, how do you kinda justify that role a bit better to them if they’re still kind of … If, I, I mentioned to you before, it’s one of the first things that our clients wanna pull off the plan. 

How do you kind of, uh, justify the place for YouTube back on the plan with, with someone who’s a bit skeptical?  

CAROLINE: I think that the … And depends on the s- like, the client and what the objective they’re trying to, what they’re trying to achieve is. I mean, we often talk about YouTube as like a Swiss Army knife, so depending on what you want to use it for, you’re gonna use it in a different way. 

But if one, if you-  

TAYLOR: I love that analogy. Yeah.  

CAROLINE: I, I just, I, like- Yeah … literally there are so many different ways you can use it, and it’s being really clear on what’s the job that you’re trying to do, and therefore how do you use it? And that is gonna change how you’re thinking about it as you’re a CMO. And quite often your CMO is having to make the argument to their CFO on- Yes 

actually [00:17:00] why does this matter? Why do we need this budget? Um, I think that the, it would depend on the client, it would depend on the job. So back to that, if I was trying to convince a skeptical CMO- Mm … I think you’ve got to understand what’s the job they’re trying to do. Yeah. And that is gonna range from sca- scale of business, how mature their brand is or not, whether they’re trying to drive growth or profitability. 

Mm. Like tho- those, those things in, in themselves will change the, change the way you’d approach a conversation with a CMO or a CFO. But at its core, I would say to anyone who is unsure about YouTube is test it. Understand what you’re trying to do about it. Mm. Test it and make sure that you aren’t … Like, if you are predominantly a performance advertiser- Mm 

and you are looking to bring YouTube into the mix, when you bring it in you’re not gonna … You need to make sure you’ve got that right measurement framework around it. Correct. Yeah. So you’re not looking at it and comparing it against how many clicks did it drive. Like, that is missing the point on what that is doing for you. 

Mm. You’re looking at it and you’re understanding, okay, well, what impact did that have on the branded search queries I’m getting? How did that reduce the cost of my search campaigns, as an example? Yeah. What are the … You’re working in an [00:18:00] ecosystem. I actually really loved, um, I think one of the podcasts you had recently, the Culture King, Sonny Bill was on. 

Yeah.  

TAYLOR: Yeah.  

CAROLINE: And he was talking around in a, I think one of the examples he gave you was in his, in his shops he really struggled with you’ve got your gun salesperson who you have wandering the floor. Mm. But they’re not the one who are on the checkout taking the, taking the orders. The conversion  

TAYLOR: point.  

CAROLINE: And I love that analogy. 

Yes. ‘Cause I think that is exactly the same. YouTube for me is that star salesperson who’s wander- Is finding the people with intent, is finding, is figuring out how do you match that with an interest they’ve got with what your- Mm … what your shop sells.  

TAYLOR: And then pushing them to the desk to buy. Yeah.  

CAROLINE: You don’t need YouTube to be on the desk. 

What a waste. Like, that’s expensive. Yeah. You, you want other, other pla- Your search plays that role. But I think how does YouTube make sure that you’ve got that, that queue at that till?  

TAYLOR: Mm.  

CAROLINE: That’s the role that YouTube plays. Yeah. No, I agree. And I think if you are a brand and you are thinking about taking YouTube off the plan- You’re cutting off that queue at the till. 

TAYLOR: Yeah.  

CAROLINE: So do you know what? If you’ve got enough demand on set-  

TAYLOR: Don’t rock  

CAROLINE: the boat … fine, knock yourself out. Yeah. But if you actually wanna grow and you wanna drive, you are in [00:19:00] the business not just of milking up existing demand, but you wanna create that demand, that’s where YouTube comes into play.  

TAYLOR: Yeah. 

No, I agree. I think that’s, that’s great advice. We also say to our clients as well, because the clients we work with, small to medium sized businesses, it’s clearer for you guys in terms of, you know, making sure that y- your brand’s actually getting out there and exposing them to, you know, the values of what you, what you are as a brand, your founders, all that kind of stuff. 

Yeah. YouTube’s a great place for that, right?  

CAROLINE: Yeah. And you can also increasingly, the measurement is getting better and better. So if I think about things like search lift and your ability to understand what that is happening within, I mean, that’s within the Google platform, I think that really does give tools, both brand lift- Mm 

and search lift, give really easy accessible tools for those small businesses who aren’t necessarily investing in-  

TAYLOR: Mm …  

CAROLINE: MMMs and some of those bigger pieces. But they can still get a really clear idea on the impact that their media is happen- having, not only within that single channel, but across different channels. 

TAYLOR: Mm. Another broad question for you.  

CAROLINE: Hit me, hit me.  

TAYLOR: What makes a really good [00:20:00] YouTube ad? 

CAROLINE: I mean, and it’s at the foundational level, we talk about the ABCDs. Yes. Um, so how do you make sure you’re hooking somebody in, you’re, you’re getting their attention up front? How do you brand very naturally and early? How do you build that connection? Like, how do you… A- and this wouldn’t- isn’t just about YouTube, any ads. 

How do you build emotion? Hmm. How do you make the most of video, having the power of sights and the motion to really move people? And then how do you direct? How do you be clear on what you want from them? So those are the very foundational pieces. I think that beyond that, I always think it’s a bit like Picasso says, you’ve gotta, like, know the rules so that you can- Yeah 

yeah, you’ve gotta know those rules so you can then disregard them. Um, I think then it’s how do you bring the best of your creativity. You have got this incredible platform- Mm-hmm … where you are not constrained by time, you are not constrained by a certain format, and you can also think through, how does the ecosystem overall play a role? 

So I think that some of the ones that I love, [00:21:00] uh, the ones that take those rules and really play with them and make them their own. Yeah. Um, and the most memorable ones. And like, I also think some of that is actually fundamentally what makes good ads. Yeah. Yes. Like, it’s not actually what makes a good U- There, there are the pieces about YouTube that are specific to platform, but what makes a great ad, creativity is at the heart of that, and I think that only gets more important in the world we’re in at the moment, where it is easier to monitor and say, okay, how do we, how do we make sure that we’re incorporating the ABCDs? 

We’ve got clearer frameworks- Hmm … on those pieces that we need, but the bit that’s gonna differentiate brands in the world of AI, we talk about as the last, um, the last, um- You lo- you commercial, you lost advantage-  

TAYLOR: Yeah …  

CAROLINE: is creative.  

TAYLOR: Mm.  

CAROLINE: Um, and so I think that bringing creativity to the platform is what makes a great YouTube ad, but I think is what makes great ads anywhere. 

TAYLOR: Yeah. Yeah, great creative. I’m glad you said the ABCDE framework. I’m gonna link it in the show notes for everyone listening- Amazing … to go and have a look at it. Now, out of the four-  

CAROLINE: And sorry, on the ABCDE [00:22:00] framework, we can also link in, there are some variations depending on whether- Yeah … you’re trying to do the long or the short. 

And they’re just, the foundations are the same, but they’re just like tweaks that- You stole my next question … as we get- Oh. Yeah.  

TAYLOR: No, but good.  

CAROLINE: Keep going. Yeah. As we get more, just as we learn more. Yeah. And I think that is one of the incredible things about both video and the tools we’ve got now, is we are continually learning. 

Yeah. Like, and I think that that means that we now do have more guidance on, okay, what works if you are focused on driving performance? Mm. What is it that, how does this work differently on short form video versus longer form video? Um, so we can share those with you.  

TAYLOR: And I do love that Google is very, um, forthcoming with information like that, and so we can im- keep improving and driving results for clients. 

So I subscribe to every one of the little things, so that’s why I had the framework ready to go as well.  

CAROLINE: Aw. Yeah. That’s good. That’s good. I mean, like, to be honest, we need, we want these things, we wanna share them because- Yeah … if they make the advertising work harder, that means the ads are, they’re gonna keep coming back. 

Mm. Like, we want it to work.  

TAYLOR: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Out of the four from ABCDE framework, which one do you think the brands skip most often? [00:23:00]  

CAROLINE: I think it depends on the type of brands. I think that, um- Attention can be one that we didn’t think about in the same way from a legacy perspective. Yeah. We didn’t have the same, you need to be unskippable from the get-go. 

You need to drive peak lean in. Um, it’s almost like, and this isn’t, this isn’t new. Mm. It’s, I think the ABC has been around for a while now, but that punch in the face, that how do you grab attention and hook? ‘Cause if you’ve got the opportunity to skip after five second, how do you make sure you stay? But I also think that with your more performance advertisers, I think that connection bit, that how do you build emotion? 

Mm. And it does a- again, it does depend on the job to be done, but as marketers, generally speaking, our job is to move people.  

TAYLOR: Yes. Yeah.  

CAROLINE: And the way we move people is with emotion. And that emotion, it can, you know, it, humor. It can be humor, it can be the to- like a, there are so many ways you can bring it to life. 

Mm. But I think that is one that, and again, it does depend on the objective and what you’re trying to do. Mm. Um, but I think [00:24:00] that’s one of the ones that can get missed.  

TAYLOR: And then we quickly kind of touched on, you know, short versus long-form. What are the major differences in the way that someone create, um, creative for the different, um, formats? 

CAROLINE: From an ads perspective or a creative perspective? Creative, yeah. Create- ads c- creative. I mean, I think your, your short form we do tend, tend to see it need to be less high production value. Mm. Less glossy, more endemic, more natural to, more natural to the feed- Yeah … and the way people are c- are consuming. 

I think for your longer form or your, your horizontal, it’s really interesting even the, the different lengths of creative that you can have within that. And you, yes, you’ve got your standard kind of your 15 seconds, your 30 seconds, but some of the most amazing, I guess you could call them ads, you could call them pieces of content- Mm 

like your Tourism Australia stuff- Yeah … like a couple years old. Like, you know, it’s sort of eight, nine minutes long. Um-  

TAYLOR: Flex your creative muscle with these,  

CAROLINE: yeah … 100%. Like, what’s the story you wanna tell? Mm. And work, work back from that. Mm. And I think increasingly [00:25:00] you are seeing brands, um, particularly some of the bigger brands, brands like Apple are really good at it, where they have the hero longer form story, but then from that, that’s where you get your 30 seconds, your 15, your… 

You want, the crazy ecosystem right now is hungry, right? Mm. You need those different sizes to make sure that for every different viewer moment, there is a cut that can- Yeah … can fill that ecosystem and fill that moment.  

TAYLOR: Yeah. Great. Now, for someone who doesn’t watch YouTube, uh, who is listening today, what are people-  

CAROLINE: Sorry. 

TAYLOR: Yeah, I know. Who? Who? Crazy, right? Yeah. I know. Everyone’s online. So, um, yeah. For  

CAROLINE: that 6% of Aussies who don’t watch YouTube, you guys- Let’s talk to the 6%,  

TAYLOR: let’s get them back on it I’m teasing You want 100% share. Um, what are people actually watching on, on, um, YouTube?  

CAROLINE: Oh, what was the last video you watched on YouTube? 

TAYLOR: Honestly, I’ve been doing with this podcast, I watch a lot of other podcasts now. I like to watch how they set up the cameras, the sets. Uh, Jay Shetty in his podcast- Yeah … gets some really great guests on there.  

CAROLINE: Yep.  

TAYLOR: [00:26:00] Um, that’s my sort of style of content at the moment. Before that, you know, it was probably like things from broadcast TV that are brought over, like you mentioned before. 

I would love to say it’d be DIY and cooking, but that’s just not me.  

CAROLINE: But I think you’ve just illustrated perfectly what people are watching.  

TAYLOR: Yeah, okay.  

CAROLINE: Which is everything. Mm. They’re watching what they are passionate about and what is interesting to them right now. Mm. So for you, that is something that I would… 

I’ve never watched. Yeah. Like, I… Jay Shetty, I know obviously, but beyond that, like you’ve probably watched videos that I will never come across. For me, I was watching Last Night on the Sofa. I was, um, watching, uh, the, um, a Bo Mars episode- Mm-hmm … um, around his new house that he’s been… Well, new house, new old house that he’s been doing up. 

Yeah. Um, I was also, I also watched some Sailing the Vagabond last night with my husband, ’cause we’re into sailing. This morning, I was on YouTube and I was doing, I’m doing some rehab at the moment for a boring shoulder injury. Ah, yeah. And I was doing my 20-minute- Yeah … rehab with a creator that I do every morning. 

So I think the point I guess I’m [00:27:00] trying to land there is the breadth and depth of YouTube- Mm … means there is no single thing. You are watching about what is passionate to you and what’s engaging to you, and I think that’s what makes it uniquely different. Mm. People are coming with this intent to find what they want to look for, and it’s one of the things that- Both keeps people coming back from an audience perspective- Yeah 

and a viewership perspective, but it’s also what makes the advertising so compelling- Mm … ’cause you’ve got that attention in a way that you just don’t have when you’re sitting there and you’re just like, what comes up? You’re seeking out and you’re coming with intent.  

TAYLOR: I actually asked a few people before I came on here today, even Jake, who’s doing the, the recording over here. 

I’m like, “What do you guys watch?” And he goes, “My algorithm now is so perfected that I get on there and I just open it up and it shows me what I wanna see.” He knows what you  

CAROLINE: want.  

TAYLOR: Yeah. Um, I don’t think I’ve got my algorithm that good yet, but I think that’s the power of kinda that machine learning that goes into platforms like YouTube. 

Yep. Right? Like, once you watch enough, it’ll start to curate everything for you as well.  

CAROLINE: 100%. But then also at the same time, like, I … Over the last week, I was at a, a party last weekend, um, where there was a lot of … Some have been, some [00:28:00] friends have been tuna fishing, caught some massive tunas. Yeah. A lot of sashimi. 

Um- Mm … my husband and a bunch … It was, it was amazing. Um, my husband and a bunch of his friends all ended up in the kitchen, like, drooling over a knife sharpener, which I mean, not my thing. Um, all I needed was … Oh, it’s Father’s Day coming up. That’s what my husband needs. Yeah. A knife- a knife sharpener. He was literally drooling over it. 

I went on YouTube and I’m searching, um, then the … I first … No, first I went to Google Search and I looked up knife sharpeners and I was like, “Oh my god, there’s loads.” It’s like a special round one that, I don’t know- … they all got very excited about. I was … I looked on Search. I was like, “Oh, God, I haven’t got time for this now. 

I’ll come back to it.” I was then on YouTube. It was, um, it was actually after this morning when I’d just finished my rehab, and I started getting content around, like, the specific rolling knife sharpener. Right. By a- there was a particular brand who had, um, used some creators, I think it was Kimbo. I went on, I watched a c- I ended up watching a couple of the videos and I was like, “Oh, okay.” 

Mm. “Well, I’m just gonna, I’m gonna do this and be organized for once and have my Father’s Day present for my husband sorted out.” Um, that was something I would never have- Mm … looked at. The, the [00:29:00] algorithm would never have sent me, but I had that spark, you know, offline. It was at a party. Came up, I did search on Google, but then that served me, served me the, served me the ads which felt like content. 

I go into that and suddenly I made a purchase. Yeah. But I think that’s where, yes, you’ve got the entertainment bit, the algorithm, like, gets to know you, serves you content- Mm … that it thinks you’re gonna like based on your preferences and all the other signals it’s got. But then you’ve also got, that’s the joy, I think, about YouTube being able to bring in those intent signals from us- Yeah 

where is it suddenly, like, serving me something new that was hyper-relevant to the moment. Yeah. It’s got me to buy … I’ve, I’ve never heard of this brand before. I’ve now spent, I don’t  

TAYLOR: know-  

CAROLINE: Don’t tell me how much … $100, $100 on a knife sharpener. Yeah. I’m like, “What have I done?”  

TAYLOR: Yeah.  

CAROLINE: Um, actually, when does this go to air? 

Is it after Father’s Day?  

TAYLOR: Yeah, it will be. Yeah. Yeah, we can safely say that. Oh. Uh, now I’m assuming being, working at Google, you guys have got a lot of insights around, I guess, what people are watching, that sort of thing. Is there a content or type of, uh, creator that’s, you know, I guess, trending at the moment that people should be aware of? 

CAROLINE: [00:30:00] Oh, I think the content that I see really take off, and I think has been really interesting, has been how- How we think about cultural moments has just evolved.  

TAYLOR: Mm-hmm.  

CAROLINE: So you used to have, like, the broadcast moment and the big event. So let’s say FIFA World Cup. Yeah. Yeah. Great example, but it could be anything. 

It could be Coachella earlier- Mm-hmm … this year or whatever it might be. I think that you used to have that, that single moment, that single point in time that brought people together. It was your watercooler moment. What we are seeing as a, a trend on YouTube is just how those moments have expanded. So as an example, you know, the Met Gala is live-streamed on YouTube. 

Mm. We got, I think last year it was 15 million- No way … um, 15 million on the live stream. You had hundreds of million views then on the content that surrounded that content. Um, and similarly on, on FIFA World Cup, like we don’t stream outside of, I think Brazil, we actually streamed a lot of the live matches. 

Outside of there, we’re not streaming the live matches. Those are typically on the s- on free-to-air broadcast- Yeah, broadcast, yeah … for the most part. But the sheer volume of FIFA content, [00:31:00] shoulder content- The analysis behind the analysis, the fun games in relation to it, I think that is what is really- Mm-hmm 

really interesting at the moment. So how we all engage with these cultural moments, it’s becoming less about a single moment, and it’s the moment around the moment.  

TAYLOR: Yeah.  

CAROLINE: And it keeps on expanding, and I think we’re seeing that massively around sport is a really obvious one. FIFA World Cup was, was massive for us. 

Mm. Um, music is another one. Even how, um, you know, Taylor Swift announcing a new album on the New Heights podcast, huge.  

TAYLOR: Mm.  

CAROLINE: What was bigger was all the fan reactions, the analysis- Yeah … the content that goes on YouTube around that. And I think it, that makes a really interesting opportunity for brands. Yes. 

And I think we see the same thing around any big cultural moment, is it’s the reactions, it’s the content around, it’s the analysis behind the analysis, and I think we’re only gonna see that continue to increase. Yeah. Right. And I think it’s really interesting from a consumer perspective. I think we all get it. 

We’ve all done it. Um, but also from a brand, from how brands can make the most of that.  

TAYLOR: [00:32:00] Mm-hmm. I’m just looking at my next few questions. I might have already asked these in a different way, but let’s just go again anyway.  

CAROLINE: Sweet.  

TAYLOR: Um, short versus long form, what is the kind of the split in terms of viewing right now? 

Do you know the answer?  

CAROLINE: I don’t.  

TAYLOR: Yeah. Um-  

CAROLINE: Yeah. I think-  

TAYLOR: I just wonder what kind of insights you guys get from, uh, being on the YouTube.  

CAROLINE: The insights that we get- Yeah … I mean, in terms of short and long form- Yeah … viewing, we often hear, I often hear, and one of the biggest things I hear when I go into clients is, “Nobody’s got any attention anymore. 

They won’t engage with longer.” Like, people don’t want longer. Everyone’s, everyone’s attention is, like, less than a goldfish. Our platform disproves that.  

TAYLOR: Mm.  

CAROLINE: I think we see a really strong dichotomy where you either go short, or people either go short or they go long. So you’ve got, I don’t know, there’s a four-hour review of a Star Wars hotel that ended up closing down- 

that has got millions and millions of views. It’s not my jam. I haven’t watched the whole thing through. Some people do. Like, when people choose a piece of content, they will engage and they will go long.  

TAYLOR: Mm.  

CAROLINE: So I think that this sense [00:33:00] that we can’t go long and we can’t focus, I think that’s entirely, that, that is not true. 

Yeah. But you’ve got to be chosen, otherwise it’s short. So we just see that middle ground is just getting less and less. It’s either, like, short and long coexist. Yeah. And it’s one of the biggest reasons why when we go out and we ask consumers why, what they love about YouTube, is being able to get both short and long, is actually one of the things they love about the platform. 

Mm. It’s the fact that it does do both. Yeah. Um, so I think both really coexist, and we see both short form has been astronomical in how much it’s risen, but we also see, um, session times on CTV continuing to rise. Mm. So I think it’s one of those ones where the two things, they feel like they’re at opposite ends, but both are, both, both are true at once. 

TAYLOR: Yeah. And then, again, I might have already asked this, but I’ll go again. Um, you know, we went from optimizing everything to a mobile device and, and then now back to the big screen, trying to get views on the big screen. What’s the actual current split between TV and mobile viewing with YouTube? 

CAROLINE: With viewing, it’s over, over half the viewing now is on [00:34:00] CTV. Okay. I think that in terms of the challenge of optimizing to it, I mean, the big thing and we haven’t talked around it much is the, the difference that AI is having- Mm … and how that is like a superpower on top of the targeting that we’ve got. So I think increasingly we would say to most customers like if you’ve got a specific reason to be thinking about targeting by device- Do it 

absolutely. Yeah. But otherwise, let the machine do it for you. Let the machine fi- you know, knowing the content that you’ve got, the goals that you’ve got and you’re trying to achieve, let the machine do the hard work. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause it can do it far more effectively and at greater scale than, you know, any individual can. 

I think that’s, yeah.  

TAYLOR: And I guess when you’re looking at, you know, mobile, TV, long versus short, you, you kind of mentioned this already, but should we be looking at these to do different jobs? You know, like should, you know, the TV be the long form be for the brand building and then mobile with Shorts, you know, YouTube Shorts be for the performance type stuff? 

Or should we just let the AI kind of take over a little bit?  

CAROLINE: I think you let the AI take over. Yeah. [00:35:00] I think you let the AI take over and optimize. We see, I mean, Shorts is really… I’ve been really interesting. Our Shorts is obviously a mo- built for mobile experience. Mm-hmm. But the rise, we’re seeing Shorts consumption on CTV rise massively. 

Yeah. So I think that the consumer moves more quickly than we can as we do as marketers.  

TAYLOR: Mm.  

CAROLINE: Which is where I think AI is really interesting ’cause it can find the consumer and it can find it on a, that more one-to-one basis of for that consumer who is watching Shorts on their CTV, how do we make sure the right asset is showing up to them at the right time? 

Yeah. So I think that to try and, otherwise you’re trying to optimize for how things have been before and it is changing so quickly and it’s on such, to the point around my YouTube is not your YouTube. Yes. That how do you make sure you can optimize for, you know, the target audience you’ve got YouTube.  

TAYLOR: Mm. 

CAROLINE: Let the machine do it.  

TAYLOR: What would you say to a marketing manager who kind of flat out thinks that YouTube just isn’t brand safe for them?  

CAROLINE: I think the first thing I want to understand is what does brand safe mean to them. Yeah. So I think [00:36:00] every brand has a different level of tolerance, and I think, I think about it less through brand safety and more through brand suitability, like what’s suitable for my brand. 

Like am I okay with nudity? Am I okay with swearing? Mm. Like different brands will have different, quite rightly, different takes on that.  

TAYLOR: Yeah.  

CAROLINE: I think that my perspective on it is you tell me what your, what your barrier, what your, what your bar is, and I can show you content that meets that bar.  

TAYLOR: Okay.  

CAROLINE: And then you have the controls to bring that in. 

So I think it’s really about understanding, encouraging brands to think about what that means for their brand and how they want to show up and their consumers. Mm. And that does differ across verticals, across different, different businesses. Um, but really from a YouTube perspective, like we give you the controls- Yeah 

to make sure that you can then match that level of suitability that you have with the content we’ve got, and it’s about having the controls to do that on an individual basis.  

TAYLOR: Yeah, it’s a good point, ’cause I think people either think brand safe or not, right? Yeah. There’s no like where’s the line. I think that’s a really good sort of point you make around-  

CAROLINE: And it’s true across all [00:37:00] media. 

TAYLOR: Yeah.  

CAROLINE: Like it’s true across all media. I think it is something… It is something that I think over the last kind of 10, 12 years, those, we have massively invested those controls. And you look at things like the MRC accreditation that YouTube’s got- Mm … which we’re really, really proud of. That wasn’t something that we had 15 years ago from a brand safety perspective. 

We do now. Um, but I think those controls is something that we’ve heard from advertisers that they need- Yeah … and we’ve invested massively in giving. So I’d say, I’d say on that, like if that is a CMO’s objecti- objection, I think it is where do you, how do you think about brand suitability? Mm. What does it mean for you and your brand? 

What are you buying elsewhere? Where is that line? ‘Cause you, you’ll have that line across other media too. Yeah. Okay, let’s work out with the controls we’ve got how we replicate that across YouTube.  

TAYLOR: Yeah. And being digital, you can control it a lot better, so it makes sense. Absolutely. Yeah. Let’s make this a bit more practical. 

As I said to you before, we work with a lot of, um, like franchise, multi-location businesses. How can YouTube work for like a local area marketing type business? And when I mean [00:38:00] local area marketing, I mean like with a franchise brand, we’ve got whatever the store- we’ve got the brand and then the store name. 

So it’s like- Yeah … Priceline, Surry Hills verse over here. How can we make sure that YouTube still has a place to play i- in supporting those stores?  

CAROLINE: So are you thinking about it from the lens of you’re the franchise owner? Yeah.  

TAYLOR: So I- Yeah … wanna make sure that my store’s promoted. Yeah.  

CAROLINE: Okay. So let me … Yeah. 

So I think on that, I think how one of the things that you do find work really well is how do you make it feel local? Mm. How do you make it feel part of that local community? Yeah. Like, there’s just so simple things, like in the first five seconds of a video, making sure that you’re mentioning that local area, making it feel personal and relevant- Mm 

and driving that local connection. Obviously geotargeting and those sort of pieces come into it. But I think that I saw a really interesting, it’s a couple of years old now, but I do wonder, and you’ll probably be closer to this than me given your special- the area of specialism for your agency. Mm. But there was a Cabri ad in [00:39:00] India, I don’t know if you’ve seen it, where it was post-COVID and they were trying to help encourage local, small- smaller local businesses. 

Um, and they had an ad that took a famous Indian movie star.  

TAYLOR: Mm.  

CAROLINE: Um, and it used machine learning to be able to map his voice, to be able to say the local area- Ah … that it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super interesting idea. It was done by Cadbury as part of their, you know, generosity and as part of their brand to be able to get in the gate, and it was a, it was like a gift to local businesses in a time of pain. 

Lovely, lovely campaign. What I think is interesting is that was three years ago.  

TAYLOR: Mm.  

CAROLINE: I can only imagine what that technology lets you do now. Yes. Yeah. So how do you take that master asset, but how do you make it feel as a local? If you are, you know, how do you make it feel then locally? They even had it, I think, where they sent it out and you could put in your business name and your area, and it would automatically overlay it. 

Yeah. I start to think about how from a local area marketing can you do, can AI really help you- Yes … with some of those pieces in terms of building that local [00:40:00] connection, which I think is so important for- Yeah, it’s a relevancy … local area marketing. Yeah. 100%. And  

TAYLOR: I think we see that as well. It’s like, you know, we’ll see a brand run video or, I don’t know, even display to some, some degree, blanket across all their locations, and then expect the men around to kind of make it relevant to them. 

CAROLINE: Yep.  

TAYLOR: So I think, as you said, with AI it should get a lot easier to kind of, uh, make it relevant to every store area.  

CAROLINE: I think it’s that. The other thing I also think is you don’t need the super high production value that you need- Mm. That, uh, what, not every brand, depending what they’re trying to do, needs that super high production value at all times. 

TAYLOR: Yeah.  

CAROLINE: So how do you lean in to making that asset that feels local for s- you are the franchisee owner. Like, how do you… I mean, there’s a lot of content where it’s the, the owner themselves talking to camera. Mm. Like, authenticity on the platform. 100%. One of the reasons why creators are the go-to, like, the most trusted authorities for, like, younger audiences- Mm 

it’s because they have that authenticity and that trust, and they can build that connection. [00:41:00] I’d argue that your franchisee owner- Yeah … I think there’s a real opportunity for how do they leverage the local employees themselves. Yeah. And you’ve got a smartphone. You’ve got a smartphone and a story to tell, tell it. 

TAYLOR: Yeah.  

CAROLINE: Like, so I think that that old barrier of we’ve gotta be able to produce it, it’s gotta look like this, we need this amount of co- like, I think that is going.  

TAYLOR: Well, it’s the beauty of YouTube, it’s still a social media network still, right? I mean-  

CAROLINE: I mean, I’d argue it’s not a social media network, but then. 

I think it’s so much more though. Yeah. Yeah, no, but I think that’s- I think that you’ve got short form and you’ve got that component, but you can also have your beautiful- Yes … longer form stories that live alongside that, that are your, you know- Mm … your seven-minute, like, films for brands. Yeah. The spectrum, it, depending, it backs that Swiss Army knife  

TAYLOR: Mm  

CAROLINE: It can be whatever you need it to be, depending on that  

TAYLOR: Well, I used to work on Telstra back in the day, and we used to use, like, the store team in the ads Yeah 

much to their reluctancy of wanting to do it, but it localizes it for them, right? And it shows them that when they walk in, they’ll probably see Marie, who’s been there for 10 [00:42:00] years working- Yeah … at the front desk Yeah … that kind of stuff  

CAROLINE: I also think that those people, like, I don’t know, how long have you been at Telstra? 

TAYLOR: Uh, for 20, 21. Yeah.  

CAROLINE: Well, it’s not that, not that long Yeah I was gonna say, like, you’ve got a whole generation who are growing up used to pulling out their camera and filming Mm Like, that, I’m, I feel like it’s my worst nightmare of being on this, I’m like- Yeah. Um, but I feel like that’s, that’s shifting. 

Yes Or shifted. So I think that in most organizations you’ve probably got some talent there- Mm … that you could use.  

TAYLOR: And they’re used to it. They, they- Yeah … do it every single day.  

CAROLINE: And you don’t need it to be this high gloss, this same level Yeah But there’s… And you do it and you learn from it  

TAYLOR: Mm  

CAROLINE: Like, it’s a craft to be, to be built. 

TAYLOR: And now back to measurement for a second. Your store goals visit that we can report on, how do we actually know that comes from a YouTube ad rather than, like, the search or the map placement when we’re looking in the back end?  

CAROLINE: So, I mean, I think the, in the backend from a YouTube perspective- Mm … we attribute, we will look at the, we will split the attribution across the, across the channels. 

But generally speaking, [00:43:00] across YouTube’s a- attribution-  

TAYLOR: Mm …  

CAROLINE: we won’t be claiming an attribution across YouTube as well as Google Search. So you- you’re looking at the multi-touch attribution. Yeah. You’re looking at the role that it has played, and it is unlikely, maybe it could, it’s unlikely that any single media channel has played the whole-  

TAYLOR: Yeah 

CAROLINE: role in that. Correct. So that’s where I think the multi-touch attribution gets really interesting. Mm. And using tools like GA4 to understand what are those, what’s that consumer journey, journey been like.  

TAYLOR: But I guess it’s what you said before around the Simon Beard example, right? About how it’s helping build the people waiting at the counter- Yeah 

which could be the map or it could be the search ad, right? Yeah. So I think that’s what YouTube’s doing, yeah.  

CAROLINE: Yeah.  

TAYLOR: For someone running LAM day-to-day, should they trust the automated performance max buying or should they try and buy YouTube’s own separate campaign?  

CAROLINE: So I think that PMax is really good at picking up those super high-intent, um, people that Search hasn’t got. 

Mm. Right? [00:44:00] I don’t think if you are trying to get the best out of YouTube, I think you need to be thinking about how you bring demand gen into that mix- Yeah … which is far more of a, a visual product that runs, like you can run it just across YouTube if you want, or you can run it across discover feed and other visual surfaces. 

I think that if you are looking at how do you, how do you get that if PMax is right at the bottom of the funnel- Mm … like that capture, how do you move slightly further up and drive, drive the demand into that funnel? Yes. I think that’s where YouTube comes into its own, and I think then I’d be thinking about how do I complement demand gen with PMax. 

And we’ve done numerous studies that look at how they work together-  

TAYLOR: Mm …  

CAROLINE: and how the audience you’re tapping into, it’s, it’s incremental conversions you are driving with that.  

TAYLOR: Yep. Awesome. One thing we haven’t touched on, um, which I’m really intrigued about, is how creators play into the mix with YouTube advertising. 

CAROLINE: Oh. I mean, first of all, creators are absolutely fundamental to the platform. Yeah. Um, so when we talk around, you know, the things that make YouTube unique to YouTube, it’s scale. Mm. Like it’s reach we’ve touched on. [00:45:00] Um, the attention it gets, we’ve touched on that as well. And I think within that, the third one is the trust. 

The, and the trust comes directly from the creators on the platform, and I think they are, as we move in this world from a, from a world of broadcast that we were in kind of, you know, a decade or so ago, to one where people can choose- You’re increasingly seeing them choose endemic creators. Mm. And one of the reasons for that is the connection and the trust that they can build with their audience. 

Yeah. I think that the interesting one for brands is how do you get invited in? Yes. Like, how do you me- how… If trust is the currency, how do you leverage the trust a creator has got and feel that halo impact for your brand? And I think that is a, I think we’re only really getting started-  

TAYLOR: Mm …  

CAROLINE: on that. I think there is a real opportunity. 

I think we’re starting to see some brands do a, do a good job of that. But it’s, there is a challenge I think in terms of how you get creators. You’re not just using them as talent. No. You’re not just giving them a script and being the voice. They’ve got a connection with their audience ’cause they know how to connect with them. 

They know what it [00:46:00] is, what it will take to get the message across to their audience. So I think the interesting bit for brands there is how do you have your brand guardli- your guardrails and know what it is you want to be achieving and what, where your red lines are. But how do you give more of that, um, creativity-  

TAYLOR: Yeah 

CAROLINE: to the creator to do what they do best, which is integrate you into a broader storyline. This isn’t a using a creator necessarily just in a buy this now moment, which can also be really effective at some stage of the funnel. Yeah. But how do you… I was chatting with Beau Mars was, um, I was chatting with Beau Mars recently, who’s a big Aussie creator, amazing. 

Done some, worked with some fantastic brands. But he was talking around how for him, he just wears a watch, and that is what people, audiences will pick up on. Or he’ll integrate a storyline. So he did one for Patagonia, and he did- Mm … a storyline where he only ate a pump- he did the mass run and only ate pumpkin. 

Not my, not my cup of tea. Um, but there he was [00:47:00] the one who could bring the creativity to how does he truly integrate that story. Yeah. Um, and I think that that is the opportunity for brands is how do they get that line of being able to lean in and make the most of the trust that creators have, and use that to drive the results for their brand. 

TAYLOR: Yeah, I spoke about this with someone else the other day. Between we’ve gone from influencer, which was the scripted buy this now, to creator, which again, as you said, integrates it really well, uh, into their video.  

CAROLINE: They are incredible storytellers. They’ve got craft. Mm. They have spent ye- nobody c- you don’t become a big creator on YouTube overnight. 

Yeah. You have spent years honing that craft. It’s one of the things I think of when we talk about UGC, and sometimes it’s talked about really dismissively. Yeah. But the big creators on YouTube, they are, they are production powerhouses. Like, they, sometimes they have teams, sometimes they don’t. But they’ve got a craft. 

Like, they, they know how to tell a story, and they know how to build connection. Mm. And I think so- it can be so dismissive f- to be, as UGC. That is not- No … these are the new era of cre- Mm … of that new era of Hollywood, like-  

TAYLOR: I’m fascinated by some of them, yeah  

CAROLINE: Yeah. They’re incredible.  

TAYLOR: Um, I’d like to a section we call the effing truth, which is like a quickfire sort of fast round. 

So we’ll [00:48:00] get into it. What’s the first thing you look at when a campaign underperforms?  

CAROLINE: Campaign set up or someti- Yeah … sometimes. But I think also, I think the first thing you wanna look at is what was it there to do? What, like was it underperform- Hmm … what’s, how are we judging underperformance? And have we been really clear on that? 

TAYLOR: Correct. Should every brand have a long form strategy in 2026?  

CAROLINE: When you say long form, what do you mean?  

TAYLOR: Uh-  

CAROLINE: So I know it’s not quick fire.  

TAYLOR: Video strategy, I suppose, and- A  

CAROLINE: video strategy- Yeah … absolutely. Yep.  

TAYLOR: Yep. Um, the one YouTube feature every brand should be using.  

CAROLINE: I think increasingly it’s not a feature, but I think creators. 

TAYLOR: Mm-hmm. The best campaign you’ve seen this year on YouTube.  

CAROLINE: Oh. I mean, oh, it’s a really, it’s a, I’ve got some recency bias here, ’cause I happened to get it this morning, I loved it. I just reminde- I, it was, I had to look at it this morning and I laughed on it. But, um, the KFC one- Hmm … where you end up getting Rick Rolled- [00:49:00] Yeah 

without realizing it. Like, I’m like, I, it just, it just makes me laugh. E- every time I hear it, it just makes me laugh- Oh … from the ice skating, I just, it just ends there. So good. Yep.  

TAYLOR: Uh, one big creator or 10 small ones?  

CAROLINE: 10 small ones  

TAYLOR: Yeah  

CAROLINE: But I c- depending on the job you’re do- the job that you’re trying to do, uh, the job you’re trying to do and the brand you are. 

So I wanna say, I’m hedging my bets there. For the majority, particularly the sort of brands you’re talking to-  

TAYLOR: Mm …  

CAROLINE: um, I would say 10 small ones.  

TAYLOR: Yeah. And the Australian creator every brand should be talking to?  

CAROLINE: Oh, again, there is no one. See, the whole point around, like, your YouTube is not my YouTube. Yeah. 

Your brand is not my brand. Like, I mean, I’ve mentioned already, I’m at, at the moment loving, like, Beau Miles’ content. Yeah. That is not gonna be for every brand. Um, at the same time you’ve got, um, people like Leanna, who I think is just brilliant and hilarious. Mm. Like, uh, so I’ll tell you, I … In the same way that your YouTube is not my YouTube. 

Yeah, it’s not, yeah. Like, your creator is not my creator. Like, and I think brands should be really cognizant of [00:50:00] what makes that creator the right creator for me.  

TAYLOR: Yeah. So at the beginning I asked you to think about if there was a local physio or local hair salon, uh, and they’ve got four clinics on the Sunshine Coast, 12 staff, open for nine years. 

How would you best activate them to make sure they got their story told on YouTube advertising?  

CAROLINE: I think the first my- where my head always goes with any of these is it’s strategy before tactics.  

TAYLOR: Mm-hmm.  

CAROLINE: So it’s what’s the job there to be done? So you’ve got four stores.  

TAYLOR: Mm.  

CAROLINE: Do you have massive gaps? Do you have… 

Do some of them have more demand than others? Like, how, what is it you need to be doing with them? Um, ’cause I think that will, um, change how you’d approach it. I think the other marketing that you’re doing, I don’t think YouTube exists in a silo. Mm. So what is your broader ecosystem- Yeah … is what I’d be thinking about. 

Um, if you’re doing nothing and you’re saying, “Okay, what’s my, like, media from scratch?” The first one I’d be saying is, like, you want to make the most of existing demand. So that is, I think, uh, I love YouTube, but that is still where I’d say search- Yeah … right? And make the most- Yeah … of [00:51:00] existing demand. But do not put all your money into existing demand. 

You need to be building up that future demand, building that relationship in the local environment. I do think if you’ve got your staff and you’ve got what could- Mm … some content look like that tells that story. If it’s a physio you mentioned, is it the content around… So the person who’s hurt their back that day and really needs help, they’re on, they’re, they’re, they’re putting that to search. 

Yeah. They’re looking for someone. How do you make sure you’re accessible and you are there in that moment? But equally, how do you make sure you’re the first one someone thinks about when they’re like, “I need a physio,” not just I need a physio- Yeah, correct … in this place in the Sunshine Coast, but I need e- like, X physio. 

I think that’s where you wanna be playing to YouTube. And I think that if you’ve got a core team, get them doing some content. Mm. Like, make sure that, and make sure it’s referenced in, you know, geofence, and you’re thinking about that local area that you’re trying to specifically drive in. But I think that local connection-  

TAYLOR: Yeah 

CAROLINE: is the thing I’d think about. But I would be, from media spend perspective, I’d be thinking about your existing demand, like your high intense search, how do you capture [00:52:00] those people at that moment- Yeah … when they just want it and they want it now. And I’d be thinking about something like Demand Gen with your creator or kind of more, um, I guess, localized assets. 

TAYLOR: Yeah. No, that’s great advice. Thank you. I’ve learned so much today, so thank you so much, Caroline Oates. Where can everyone find you online to stay up to date with what you’re doing?  

CAROLINE: LinkedIn is probably the best. LinkedIn would be the-  

TAYLOR: Yep …  

CAROLINE: the go.  

TAYLOR: Yep. Yep. And as I mentioned before, I’ll link some of the stuff we’ve talked about in the show notes today, so people have got all those references for the different- Amazing 

ABCDE frameworks, all that kind of stuff. But thank you so much.  

CAROLINE: Oh, thank you so much for your time. Loved it. Really great- Awesome … to chat.